With a historic ruling, the Board has voted 4-1 to impose our first ever slow play penalty.
At the next tournament, the following people - who fell 5+ holes behind in the previous event - will be going out last:
Dave
Brendan
Gary
Gorecki
Take your time warming up, boys. You've earned each others' company for 6+ hours or however long you think golf should be played.
John wrote the Majority Opinion: in a perfect tournament environment, we'd be monitoring time-par like they do at PGA TOUR events. Group A should have been forced to skip holes and given max scores. But since that's not possible, kicking them to last for one event hopefully gets everyone to realize the Board is taking pace of play seriously. He also thinks public shaming doesn't make an impact, as was evident by Group A's indifference when challenged after the round. John wants the Board to consider (at a later date) forcing max scores if a group falls multiple holes behind.
JW commented in a Concurring Opinion that Group A's antics last week could damage our Club's reputation. Complaints by members might hinder our access for future events if we're deemed "slow."
Faz was the only "no" vote, and had concerns that the penalty was "knee-jerk" and a slippery slope. He also isn't a fan of mid-season rulings, and opts for more public shaming. Regardless of the vote, he wants to establish better documented pace of play policies in the next off-season meeting.
My opinion was clearly documented in the recap, but I have a few more shots to fire. I 100% disagree with Faz that this is "knee-jerk." We've been bitching about certain people's pace of play for years. Public shaming works somewhat, but what if this happened at Feather Sound? And their management holds JW in a bad light, and tells him he's no longer allowed to bring guests? Are the selfish slow players going to just shrug and say "not our problem, play better if you don't want to be behind us"?
Booting the slow-players to the back of the pack is the least we should be doing. I'm not a fan of point reduction or adding gross strokes... but I can definitely be convinced of course handicap penalties. Taking away your precious net strokes will quickly rehabilitate your way of thinking. Someone feels playing slow helps win events? Good luck when your course handicap is reduced from a 19 to a 10.
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In an unrelated note, Faz had 5 birdies last round. That's a lot. I went and did the research on a couple of birdie records:
Most Birdies (or better) in a Round
Melberg - 7 - Summer 2021 The Concussion
Dan - 6 - Summer 2023 The Concussion (includes 1 eagle)
Faz - 5 - Spring 2024 The Concussion
Dave - 5 - Summer 2020 The Concussion
Most Consecutive Birdies (or better)
Melberg - 4 - Summer 2021 The Concussion
Travis - 3 - Spring 2022 Jamaican Open
Dave - 3 - Summer 2021 Hangover Invitational
Chandler - 3 - Summer 2017 Hangover Invitational
Gary - 3 - Summer 2016 DPT Masters
Buchert - 3 - Spring 2016 DPT Championship
It’s a knee jerk ruling lead from bad golfers with a sore butt, I feel playing last actually benefits me. So if group 1 falls way behind this week (moosty, Danny, Geoff, melberg) the whole group plays last the following week?
ReplyDeleteDepends on how far behind they fall.
ReplyDeleteSlow play penalties are a real thing. We can’t do “nothing.”
Do you recall John bitching about slow rounds in Brandon and we were I believe 20-30 min under the pace? I’ve also never heard of a whole group getting punished ? It’s a slippery slope of nonsense
ReplyDeleteI don’t recall a group ever being 5+ holes behind another four ball. So this is all new to us. And offensive. We squash it now or we let the inmates run the asylum!
ReplyDeleteIf I had to pick the 4 'Speed Golfers' in our league, they would be...oh wait...Geoff, Casey, Adam and Troy.
ReplyDeleteThis is proven by the observation that they played in 2 hrs & 30 min, the exact same time that we played the practice round in...as a threesome!
Exactly Gary! I expect to see the published pace of play from now on in this blog. Otherwise how do I know I won’t get punished ? Maybe it’s a very fast 4 ball ahead of me. Maybe John starts shanking again and wants to pick on the group ahead to deflect his terrible play. What’s the pace of play at the north course? Was this discussed among the board? I’ve texted the others but again they are mute. I’m all up for pace of play rules but I don’t ever see us being able to enforce them without a negative atmosphere. We have spoken about moosty for years so are we suggesting punishment against him going forward? lol
ReplyDeleteThey played in the appropriate amount of time. A slow player would try to rationalize that they are our fastest golfers. Adding ONE player to our scouting group wouldn’t have extended us from 2:30 to 3:40
ReplyDeleteUnless that player was Dave, Brendan, Gorecki, or Gary
Wait… Dave and Gary were in the same scouting group. Hmm… we are getting warmer…
Hard to say for sure...giving the mutes the benefit of doubts, adding another golfer to a threesome would add 30% more time to the threesome round. Thus 150 minute round would become a 200 minute round...oh wait...3 hours and 20 minutes.
ReplyDeleteDamn, you're right. We were 20 minutes to slow...shits given and received!
This is a knee jerk reaction to punish everyone. I have yet to be asked my opinion about the slow play by anyone that voted on me being penalized. And probably the first time I’ve been associated with the phrase slow play. I play ready golf on the tee and don’t take practice swings. I will stand over a putt a little long but gosh it’s not that time consuming, just looks painful. We teed off right at 9:58am. I didn’t time us but I texted Lolly at 1:32 well after our round that I was playing another round. I thought our round was about 3 hours and 15 minutes. I admit it could have been faster as a group. But whoever is exaggerating the time for the round should get their facts straight especially since that narrative is what people were basing a punishment on me off of. I feel this is people that played bad on a power trip. +8, +11, +17 & didn’t play voted for punishment while -5 said no punishment. I’m out next event anyways so maybe you all can vote if my punishment should carry over to my next round.
ReplyDeleteTheir rule is falling apart like their golf game.
ReplyDeleteMy campaign coffers haven’t seen a flood of donations like this in years. Everyone’s favorite board member is just here for the shits given
ReplyDeleteI can assure you my +8 has nothing to do with my vote or sentiment about the slow play. I was very excited to not owe a pitcher. Thankfully that rule/punishment makes a bad day feel like a good one!
ReplyDeleteAs for a "power trip"... that's a straw-man argument. For what purpose are we tripping on the illusion of power? What do we get out of it? We just want you people to speed up... and when you're playing a slow round, we want you to pull your head out of your asses and realize what is happening in real time.
8 golfers... even the Board Member who voted "no"... saw there was a huge problem in Group A. Massive. Disgustingly atrocious. The solution to this isn't: "welp, slows will be slows!"
I get that everyone in Group A is in denial. Of course it can never be any of your fault. I can't even blame you guys for making up arbitrary facts like "a fourth golfer adds 30% more time."
But we literally had a foursome set a 2:30 pace. So what, pray-tell, should we expect? A full 45 minutes (30% longer) behind as Brendan recollects? Or 70 minutes behind (47% longer) as my timer shows?
Or are both of those unacceptable? To put it in context... even at Brendan's number... a 30% increase over a 4-hour round on a full-sized course is 5.2 hours. I guess that's not a big deal, right? Slows will be slows.
Be sure to update your RSVP for the next event.
Also, yes… Brendan has never been associated with slow play. I’m not trying to imply otherwise
ReplyDeleteIn your last equation, Geoff, Casey, Adam, and Troy would have played that 4 hour round in 3.5 hours though. So you have to do 30% off of that. So 4.55 hours. Slow but not unheard of.
ReplyDeleteI’m curious if Chandler has opened his second bottle of red wine yet. We have to be getting close.
ReplyDeleteThat’s only if you assume their 2.5 hour round was faster than time-par. Troy is fast. The other three are normal. Finishing within spitting distance of that foursome should be expected.
ReplyDeleteYou guys had a bad day. The penalty isn’t harsh by any means, supported by all based Board Members who aren’t blinded by their own stellar play. Faz is going to need to see a doctor because his 5 birdie erection has yet to go down. He was never going to do the brave thing by attacking this pandemic head on. He’s a slow play denier!
We will get through this.
No only on the first bottle. Souder texted me a bit ago: “Golf blog going back to its kickball roots”
ReplyDeleteI stand by my vote. Everyone should play fast golf. Many in our league do, actively trying to find ways to keep the pace up by walking when it will save time, getting yardages for others if someone is stuck looking for a ball, knowing which club to pull, not dicking around on their phones, reading putts in a non-intrusive manner while others are putting, etc. It’s one tournament you’ve moved to the back of the line. Everyone take notice that egregious slow play will not be tolerated. It was a group effort even if it was led by only one or two people, and I don’t know who they were. I was following along and I was shocked to see one group through 17 while the next was only through 12 or 13. In fact, I took a screen shot at about noon and one group was through 15 and the next closest was through 10. 5 holes difference in 15 holes is unacceptable.
ReplyDeleteI'll use this platform to request the board reconsider their decision.
ReplyDeleteThis recent decision made by the board occurred just one day after the conclusion of a round. Many are viewing this as a knee-jerk reaction, and it's important to reconsider the process.
This appears to be the first instance of a mid-season change being implemented, deviating from the established protocol. Previously, the commissioner has encouraged suggestions for changes based on specific instances or circumstances. These suggestions were then discussed and voted upon at the subsequent board meeting, with changes taking effect in the following season.
I'm requesting the board follow this standard procedure and reconsider their recent decision in a more measured and deliberative manner.
Zero rules or changes have been made. This is a PENALTY for slow play.
ReplyDeleteSlow play is dickish. Don’t be a dick (Rule 14). Stop deflecting and start playing faster.
Since I was in the cart with Gorecki, the way this all reads, everyone knows Gorecki is slow but it is my fault I didn’t speed him up through the course. Again I will say, I don’t think I have her been insinuated or assumed to be a bad cartner. I dropped him off at everyone of his 2nd shots and went off to my ball, I give distances for the whole foursome with my laser, play ready golf, and I grab clubs off the green when we leave. Everything one can do besides take peoples shots for them. We were slow on the front. Dave and I had lost balls on 8 that everyone helped look for. Gary had a bad stretch on 10-12. Gorecki shot a 52 on the front. He couldn’t make contact with the ball. It was just bad golf that led to walking the par 3’s. From hole 13 on, he got his swing and we started moving. This was the time we saw the first group on 17 tee. I was shocked but the first time I saw them all day since they tee’d off 10 minutes before our 1st tee time. We sped up and the group behind us didn’t wait on a box the last 6 holes. The narrative was already formed by this point though. I honestly don’t mind the penalty, don’t care about where or who I play with. I do care about the accusation that I am somehow at fault for things out of my control.
ReplyDeleteWhen I ride with Gorecki, he wins tournaments. 😬
ReplyDeleteInteresting to see a carpooling discrepancy that has zero to do with me was a factor that made it into the decision making process on my punishment.
ReplyDeleteI don’t know anything about what happened to Troy in the clubhous. The only thing I looked at was one group was 5 holes behind. I really thought it was just the flat tire fiasco and a cart changeout that made that happen, but even that group was waiting on every hole after 4. It’s not personal. I’ve enjoyed rounds with all 4 of you. Yes, even Gorecki. I just see an hour+ gap between groups and I think something should happen to discourage that and encourage fast play. I hate slow play. It ruins rounds.
ReplyDeleteI do think it’s funny that the foursome line was “play better and get in front of us” and now we hear that it was bad play that held them up. Maybe y’all should have played better and this wouldn’t have happened.
I’ll also say that as one of the worst golfers in the history of the league (although much improved recently), I have always played fast.
ReplyDeleteDave leaving Troy out to dry had nothing to do with my vote.
ReplyDeleteI'm also the one who suggested the punishment. Honestly I thought it was just symbolic and Group A would shrug it off. Dave attempted to by saying he's going to benefit from going out last. Brendan seems more annoyed his name is being associated with slow play. Gary is off in the clouds somewhere. And Gorecki is legit butt-hurt because he thinks going out first is some badge of honor that is now being denied to him.
The real tragedy is that Group B skipped Group A. I know I've previously applauded them for having the foresight. But I really wish Casey, Adam, and Geoff had to sit there and witness the shit show that was Group A.
The ONLY reason Group C couldn't pass Group A was because of how slow Tall Mike was playing. But had we gone out in correct order...
Casey would be writing angry handwritten old-man letters to the Club. Geoff is not one to mince words on the blog. And Adam would be frantically side-texting a select few of us that the entire Group A should be suspended for the remainder of the season. Troy would probably still be stuck in the clubhouse.
It seems like the easy solution is letting the group behind play through if you get two holes behind as a group. That’s simple golf etiquette anyway.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of slow play… The kitchen took an hour to bring me and Troy food, which we still got and finished before we saw any smiling, er frowning faces from you guys in the clubhouse. The. You fuckers just left for another restaurant after we waited around for an hour and a half for you… you’re all assholes!
We had to leave! Couldn't wait another hour to get food for ourselves!
ReplyDeleteI love Big Cypress but their kitchen/grill is the worst.
That's fine, but I want it logged that nobody hung out after the round except Troy and me.
ReplyDeleteIf we go by average time spent per round, JW is the fastest golfer since he plays under 2 hours quite often...
ReplyDeleteSo I’ll address the Troy issue first. I drove Troy and he was aware the plan was to play extra holes. He finished 70 minutes ahead of our group and I heard nothing, I called Troy immediately after our round and told him we are trying to figure what do to. They didn’t offer a replay rate so after debating and waiting we decided to tee off on 10. Bren got a call on 10 and told them to join us, they didn’t want to and seemed pissed. My bad for making Troy wait 5 minutes before calling for a second time, we weren’t sure if it would work going out on 10. Why our committee are commenting on something they clearly don’t know anything about shows we need new blood on the committee. Faz for commissioner! The rest are dead to me, I’ll vote for anyone else.
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of selfishness one of the most selfish things I’ve seen is John bitching about slow play in Old Mac and annoying players when we finished 20 minutes UNDER the pace of play. All I see is selfish self serving remarks from the board.
We broke the news to Troy that you all went back out for more golf. So we're technically commenting on what we physically witnessed and heard. I'd say that means we "know something" about the situation.
ReplyDeleteI've never seen Troy so distraught. His eyes were welling up with anger, and fear. Was he now a Big Cypress resident? Could he purchase a trailer with land ownership rights before sundown? What was the nearest store that sold pineapple and gnome lawn decorations?
"From the Clouds"...I validate Brendan's recap of our groups play. I am also okay with the penalty applied in this 'test case' because I agree that slow play does ruin some rounds and 'maybe' I could have done more to help my group speed up. Would it have been appropriate for Dave and I to have split off as a twosome thus leaving Brendan & Gorecki alone to fend off the wolves??
ReplyDeleteThat would have been in violation of Rule 14!
Since "30% added time seems arbitrary", let's do the math. I'll use the practice round as the test pace of play. I shot a 75 during the practice round, including 3 penalty shots, which as noted took 150 minutes as a threesome (which the Commish was okay with). If I accounted for 1/3 of the pace of play time and the time was good for a threesome, then 150 minutes can't now be the standard for a foursome.
Even Geoff will admit that he had one of his best rounds from 'tee to green' ever. Oh by the way, WELL PLAYED Geoff, Moostie and Chris!!
In fairness to all, the Board still needs to clarify what the appropriate and acceptable pace of play should have been on Sunday. For this league as a whole it will never be close to 30 seconds per shot per person all the time.
Pace should be keeping up with the group in front of you. Always. Getting an entire hole behind is when alarm bells should be going off in your concussed heads. Getting 5+ holes behind... ya'll should have JW'd right off the course.
ReplyDeleteObviously we're not going to put unenforceable rules on paper like: "you must hit a shot in 30 seconds." The PGA TOUR uses ShotLink to time players... which requires hundreds of volunteers.
The TOUR states you have 50 seconds to hit a ball if you're first to play... and 40 seconds to hit a ball if you aren't. You get "excessive shot" marks if you play over 120 and 100 seconds, respectively. At some point they fine you monetarily, and can add strokes if you're out of position (they never do).
There will be video evidence of the worst offenders in the future. So if you're in my group, know that the world is watching.
So you make sweeping judgements without the facts, sounds like a common issue in the board. Maybe Troy can comment, he told me he didn’t join us because of a lack of carts
ReplyDeleteI have yet to make one inaccurate statement. And Troy can’t comment because he doesn’t have the internet set up in his Big Cypress rental. You know… since you left him there.
ReplyDeleteWe drove up in two separate cars to facilitate all people and Troy got dropped to his door in my car
ReplyDeleteA player doesn’t necessarily account for 25% of the pace of play in a foursome. There are times when the group is moving together and waiting together that play into the round duration. Part of it might be players slow to get back in carts. I could teach y’all some Lean methods to help you get your golf game to a pace where it needs to be if you’d like. I have a degree in efficiency, basically.
ReplyDeleteAnd I’ve never quit a round in under two hours except for injury. Each round that I left was due to… SLOW FUCKING GOLF! It’s not fun, and I’m not wasting what little time I have in this world watching tall Mike line up a 3 footer for double.
I think I once heard at some point in time that admitting there is a problem is the first step to doing something or other... I can't really remember where or when that was... I'm pretty sure I had been drinking...
ReplyDeleteAnyway, if people can't even admit there is a slow play problem when their group falls 4 to 5 holes behind the group in front of them, then Board intervention is 100% necessary, IMO, and may the Lord help us all.
Nobody is saying slow play is a problem, we are debating how to police and punish.
ReplyDeleteIs not a problem
ReplyDeleteIt’s interesting that those most concerned about slow play are those that are whipped by their wives. It’s the end of the world if we have to drink beer and enjoy the sun for a additional hour
ReplyDeleteDave it’s not our world anyways. The aliens are coming to take it back and we are the ones leading the charge. You should be pleased. Also nice use of drink beer as code for smoke blunts.
ReplyDeleteI just read a lot of comments deflecting blame. I think so long as everyone agrees that falling behind is a problem, then there is a reasonable starting point for discussion on what to do about it.
ReplyDeleteThe decision that the Board just made really has no negative impact on anyone involved. That is probably the best move that they could have made midseason. It brings attention to the problem, but nobody is receiving a real penalty. Maybe putting a spotlight on the problem solves the problem for the rest of the season. At that point, the Board can decide whether it needs to implement a policy long term before we start the summer season.
Not to mention all the money we're making on the clicks!
ReplyDeleteAlso, let me reiterate that Dave would have been calling for the suspension of everyone involved if he was behind that group... instead of in it.
I’ve played with Gary and Goreicki a lot recently so I accepted my fate and that’s is going to be a blood bath. Just more inaccurate judgements. Everyone likes fast golf, just not everyone is capable. I just don’t want to listen to people bitching about pace of play all season once they play terrible, that’s the new excuse apparently
ReplyDeleteThere are no problems, just solutions.
ReplyDeleteI agree with everything Brian just said.
So let me try again for a solution...someone in Group C has already admitted that they were playing 'behind pace' too. If we remove the outlier in this equation which was the fact that Group B played extremely quick, if Group A had finished in say, 3 hours (35 seconds per shot), would that have been acceptable to the Board?
I like the penalty, and feel sorry for Bren as I agree he's not a fast player, we've had some lightning quick rounds going out first.
ReplyDeleteBut it's a good mid-season rule that Buchert brings a good point on. Nobody is actually being penalized with a score correction, or stroke reduction in future rounds.
Hopefully this sends a clear message to everybody that slow play will no longer be tolerated, and can lead to some actual rule changes in the off-season to address that with actual punishments other than going off last.
Gary....
ReplyDeleteI'm doing the math as I type so maybe this will help or hurt...
The R&A states that
"There is no set formula for establishing time par. It is a good opportunity for golf course administrators to establish expectations, but it is important that the expectations are realistic. If the time pars are so strict that no one can adhere to them, they will soon become irrelevant.
If, having observed play at a course and determining that generally it is reasonable for a group of four to take 10 minutes to play an average length par 3, 13 minutes to play an average length par 4 and 16 minutes to play an average length par 5, these hole times can form the basis of the time par."
So as a foursome playing a course that has 12 par 3's and 6 par 4's (forget that they are substantially shorter than "average length"
Expected reasonable pace of play should be (12x10)+(6X13) or 3 hours and 18 minutes. Which does help your case in that you only played 20 minutes slower than expected on AVERAGE length holes....
However I think the bigger issue here is that:
A) the group ahead was 5 holes ahead of you (regardless of how quick they played which... bravo to them I love fast golf)
B) you had the entire course backing up behind you without letting people play through which I think may have been an issue people have brought up
C) Group D (hey that's me) had a tire blowout and tee'd off 30 minutes later and caught up by hole 5
I won't blame me sucking on slow play as I've shot bad scores in 3:00 Par 72 rounds as a 4some, as well as good scores in a 6 hour round and everything in between. It just takes the fun out of golf when I spend more time sitting on my phone wasting time between shots because I'm bored waiting 15 minutes every hole to hit
Here's another excerpt from the USGA:
A match is out of position when it takes more than the maximum allowable time to finish a hole and:
a) Reaches a par-3 that is clear of play and all players in the match ahead have played from the teeing area of the next hole.
b) Reaches a par-4 that becomes clear of play before any player plays a stroke from the teeing area.
c) Reaches a par-5 after any player in the match ahead has made a stroke on the putting green.
Note: If a ruling or some other legitimate delay occurs which causes the match in question to be out of position, that match is expected to regain its position within a reasonable time.
At no point did your group try to regain position
Fact check…has anyone blamed their bad golf on the pace?
ReplyDeleteLooks like first false statement and from the one accusing everyone of making false statements.
Nobody has blamed their bad golf on the pace. Dave is completely delusional, and gaslighting us.
ReplyDeleteI'm flattered he thinks we've never played bad golf before. Guess I forgot to blame "pace" Week 6 when I shot +8. Or Week 2 when I shot +10.
No, instead I waited until Week 7 to complain about pace... when Dave's pace was atrocious. That's right... Dave's pace... because he's part of the problem by association.
Bam bam has such low awareness you naturally blame it externally.
ReplyDeleteChandler is in crisis mode with his game, I can’t recall him playing so badly for so long so it’s new territory for him. His bots must be working hard
To Ho’s comment, we did not take 3 hours and 40 minutes for our round. That was an exaggeration. Our round was closer to 3 hours and 15 minutes. Let’s stop that false statement. And I’m not shifting blame or an advocate for slow play. I don’t like slow play and agree with all the comments that we need to do something to fix slow play. This has been a topic talked about for years and I am usually behind it, dealing it with it like the rest of the field. But somehow the music finally stopped this weekend and the hot potato was in my group! That’s nonsense! Find a better solution for next rule change meeting cause group punishment ain’t it.
ReplyDeleteI am about to enter the "soft cap" retardation of my Index... for the first time since the 2020 USGA changes. But my internal crisis doesn't cloud my judgement.
ReplyDeleteHo made some good points in his comment.
And at this point I think we're all in agreement we'll need to play Big Cypress North again next season... just to see what pace we come up with? Should we send out the exact same groups?
I’m sure Putin thinks the same, you are starting to look a bit like him. Will you ride John shirtless?
ReplyDeleteAs long as you, Bren, Gary, and Gorecki are in a group together... I'll have time to ride John around the course... invade Ireland... launch all the nukes... all before the back nine.
ReplyDeleteThat’s Kim Jong Chan to you and you will respect his will.
ReplyDeleteLooks like I've got to run for the Board again...Crickets!!...just kicking the can down the road till we play the course again.
ReplyDeleteHo made my point, thanks! Maybe he should be on the Board too.
If I were on the Board, I'd vote for a 3 hour pace of play for the North Course, which had us finishing 15 minutes behind (Brendan is correct).
That's 1 hole behind at the turn and 2 holes behind at 18...I agree that's too slow and worthy of the 'fake' penalty. But not sooooo slow that Group C was ever waiting on us 'at the same tee box'. If they were, we would have heard about it and dutifully let them play through.
PS...Was it Kim or Putin that claimed to have had 18 aces in a single round?
It was Kim.
ReplyDeleteAnd not sure how many times I need to spell this out... but if Tall Mike (in Group C) was replaced by literally anyone else... we'd have been on every tee box with Group A.
Also, the next Board election is at the end of 2025. You people won't even remember this by then.
We are all grown men; let us take accountability, learn from it, and move on.
ReplyDeleteBuchert, Ho, and Reid will all get my votes next cycle.
ReplyDeleteThat’s gonna be awkward when someone motions to kick out all of the Mikes.
ReplyDelete